2:43 p.m. John Thomas is conducting cross . Thank you Kim. How did we live in the pre mortal realms and agree to a plan to come here where we only had one shot to get it right? In the light of the son every person is getting a form, visible to everyone around as they are becoming visible themselves the darkness will fadeas only the light has the power to vanish the darkness. In my experience the most important point of the discussion here, which I believe to be among earnest seekers of truth, is being lightly treated by those on this forum but clearly illustrated in your comment. So, each new life gives a clean slate, while maintaining our spiritual essence and disposition and propensity for good or evil. Unfortunately, the divine version of the doctrine has not, and may not soon receive the proper attention and audience it deserves. We also know that there is an opposite to all things. i.e. They witness to the same insights I have also had on the matter. I was drawn to him because of these gifts that he freely shared with me. D&C 132:22-25 can easily be interpreted that way: 22For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me. The way Christ had already advanced to Godhood in premortality, and the associated true definition of condescension; the way Lucifer had become advanced in his power and priesthoods before becoming a fallen angel. And as this literally happens, every morning is a shadow of what will be in the long term of eternity. The Widow's Mite presents, an overview of Church land ownership in the USA. have troubled them throughout their lives. thousands of years for this day when Christians would awaken to the doctrine of That this doctrine will promote casualness and laziness. Besides the Laub's record of JS' comment on the Holy Ghost in his summary of the Sermon on the Grove, there is an additional JS comment recorded by Franklin D. Richards in August, 1843, not that long before the King Follett Sermon. You are obviously gifted and inspired by God. Such an endeavor would not be possible without the collaboration and efforts of volunteers, community groups, faith- and . As for the sealing question, I certainly believe that sealings are very important. Erika, these are great questions. as insights and spiritual impressions have come, I have not wanted to share the Both Brigham and Heber were indoctrinated in the principles and I suspect others, particularly W.W. Phelps. Have We Placed Our Hopes in the Arm of Flesh? Known holdings place as #2 top landowner, very close to #1. Come what may; I believe what I believe, and if a mans belief, though strange, is cause for punishment or ridicule from anyone, which is the greater sin? However, Laub didn't only understand that the Holy Ghost would serve as a Christ (more on that later), but he also implied that JS' King Follet Sermon taught that all who achieved Godhood would pass through the same. "And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. My future has been laid out before me. After this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. Adam-God can then be seen as based on JS' teachings and the endowment, with a simple fundamental misunderstanding on the identity of Micheal in the Godhead. Thank you for your wonderful expositions on such a beautiful and hidden part of the plan. Libraries. the content of Christian film producers in recent years. The movement has a few thousand adherents, many of them members or former members of the LDS . Required fields are marked *. Further, Mormon doctrine asserts that people can become gods. The apparent supremacy in Daniel of the Ancient of Days to the "one like unto the Son of Man," who JS interpreted as Christ, makes Brigham's Adam-God doctrine even more understandable. As for multiple lives and multiple mortal experiences, Joseph and the early saints were getting pretty creative and speculative by Nauvoo. Ok so if we are going to be Christs of other worlds then do we have to go through all the suffering Jesus went through in Gethsemane and on the cross? take it to the Lord and get your own answers. Behold, great and marvelous are the works of the Lord. The Bible is ripe with evidence in this belief. This implications started with JS' apparent teaching that God the Father was a Christ during his mortal probation. So beautiful and strong words that I saw citated by you and Greg this dynamic of dying and be born again. Although Sister Rowe is an active member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, her book is not endorsed by the Church and should not be recommended to students or used as a resource in teaching them. Im grateful you shared your experience here! I know you and Julie Row are Great tools in the Lords hand in this last days. Is it not so, surely? (Moses 1). That being said I am personally bound by the admonition given in countless times and ways throughout scripture and most clearly in the Doctrine and Covenants 63: 64. Im so grateful for you, Greg, Matt and Julie for your conviction and witnesses of the Truth! I no longer depended on him to get us there. I have so many follow up questions!! Serve. path, and between my Father in Heaven and me. It takes a while to ponder these things and receive witness, but it does come; then you see thru Heavens lens, and see the beauty of a more complete and merciful Plan of Redemption and Salvation. Hearing experiences like yours along with Erics and Julies really helps me. The "True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days" down in Manti headed by James Harmstrom (who died in 2013), teaches or taught this doctrine along with plural marriage. Kabbalism, especially the sort in 12th century Spain that produced the Zohar and so forth is a thoroughgoing Platonic conception of Judaism. There is a humbling reward in the sense of Fathers confidence in me, Even when I was small, I felt that some spirits come to be tested and other (superior) spirits come to test! Michael Quinn documented it as follows: By the time of his death in 1844, Joseph Smith had also reversed his prior rejection of the Cabala's doctrine of "transmigration of the souls." As for me, I will do my best to honor the rules of these forums. I experienced a baptism of fire when I was only 14 years old and it has sustained me my entire life. I am finding that this doctrine adds more meaning and understanding to my gospel study. we are saviors in a derived sense in which we preach the gospel. What follows is a thesis on the controversial doctrine from the 19th century referred to as multiple mortal probations, which fell out of favor along with Adam-God. I hold the knowledge sacred, personal to my own covenant So. Thank you for visiting and commenting Anna. It reminds me again of Gods ever extended arm of mercy. It is grasped in a such a powerful symbol the baptism. we would not have experience and could not really gain knowledge or wisdom. The main topics are the levels, or ladder, of eternal progression and the end times servant otherwise known as the Davidic Servant. I dont want to repeat 5th grade again. Likewise the use of the term "savior" is more vague than I think you are using it. I must continually ask myself the question, Who am I to believe that Gods work is dependent on my understanding, teaching and attempting to enlighten the unenlightened? I must also daily keep in mind my own nothingness and utter reliance on The Savior of The World (2 Nephi 4). Nevertheless, when I first read, and continued to read, SO many quotes from the early Brethren/leadership of the church, pieces started to come together. I believe this to be truth. In D&C 132:55 where the Lord is speaking of Joseph Smith he says, and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an hundred-fold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds. It appears to me that children, and crowns of eternal lives are two different things. We and our partners store and/or access information on a device, such as cookies and process personal data, such as unique identifiers and standard information sent by a device for personalised ads and content, ad and content measurement, and audience insights, as well as to develop and improve products. D&C 132 on the other hand was dictated in 1843, prime time for this topic. Multiple Mortal Probations Part II Get link Facebook Twitter Pinterest Email Other Apps November 16, 2018 . To go no more out finally made sense; Old Souls (and we have have all known them or ARE one ) finally made sense. Ive had them too, and feel Ive received answers to them. I just dont see how being promised we can be together forever, and being reborn in another life, and probably sealed to someone else fit together. knowledge for personal advantage is repulsive and would be a mockery of what I I should clarify that I approach this issue froma historical perspective. Even if I lived to be 100 years old I am quite certain I will not know everything God knows. Officially, Mormons are supposed to be almost entirely vegetarian. Thank you for bringing it out of obscurity. "And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? I'm not going to do anything drastic, but, goodness gracious! Kim, that is a very insightful point that would seem to be a witness Of truth hidden in plain sight that if reincarnation is a false doctrine, that there must be an opposite, which I feel my spirit was first introduce to in the temple. And it is all possible only in and through the merits of our Savior, the Son. I welcome it! The seriousness, the risk, and the glories of mortal life are undercut the moment one supposes he will have a million or more subsequent probations of the same sort. Perhaps Im misunderstanding. I see and feel Gods mercy and love for his children in the doctrine. I truly appreciate your time and great efforts in doctrinal essays and your wonderful books. Any comments would be helpful. I probably just need to read a book about it. Thanks, as always, this is very well thought out and written. May we find Him now. 41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness; 42 That through him ALL MIGHT BE SAVED whom the Father had put into his power and made by him; 43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves ALL THE WORKS OF HIS HANDS, EXCEPT THOSE SONS OF PERDITION who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him. I cant mention this topic to my family, friends, or post about it on any platform, without incredible hurtful persecution. What an incredible doctrine of mercy and hope! So, the basis of this conclusion is baseless. brazzers danny d. cursive worksheets for kindergarten. p.104 - see also Documentary History of the Church 2:304-307 I told . Some are asking why this doctrine is necessary. I believe in multiple probations and am thankful for this knowledge. Among early Christians and LDS the doctrine of multiple mortal probations was taught. Heavenly Father is very loving too help them through their next probation. LDS church on Gilgul or multiple mortal probations Third Hour Forum Rules - Please be familiar with these rules before posting. I must continually ask myself the question, Who am I to believe that Gods work is dependent on my understanding, teaching and attempting to enlighten the unenlightened? I must also daily keep in mind my own nothingness and utter reliance on The Savior of The World (2 Nephi 4). Anyways, it soon became apparent that his fruits were not matching what I knew to be honest and true from my own scripture study, and beliefs. Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. One of the purposes of this book is to outline basic doctrines and explain how missionaries should teach them. the handicapped, the mentally challenged, the emotionally disturbed, the third world poor, MANY have come to test the rest of us. John 9:2 Mormonism today is pretty bland by comparison. We have had two grandsons and a nephew commit suicide in their teens. I have not ever been constrained by The Spirit to speak in ways that invite others to look to me for the answers that must only come from Father. And sorry you got excommunicated! Bruce R. McConkie was a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints when this fireside address . Email from me is very sparse. dangerous doctrine. It "feels" more true to me than most of Christianity's "one and done" model. Group Guidelines: 1. As many have And what is our test score? One can know truth from error. He taught Church history and doctrine for many years at Brigham Young University.He was also the director of the Latter-day Saint historical collection in the Harold B. Lee Library.. He does not want people to wake up to who they really are. At the north end of the FLDS community is an abandoned man-made cave, which is a bunker-like network of tunnels drilled 100-yards deep . multiple lives, which to me is practical and actually very simplistic in I was once looking at the wickedness of the world and lamenting the fact that so few in this generation appear to be on a path to come to know Christ and therefore lacking what is needed to enter into His kingdom (JST Matt 7:33). Some parts of it make sense, but Ive never wanted to think too deeply about it because it made me feel such sadness to think I would be reborn somewhere else and lose my husband and kids, if they were to go somewhere else. 2. mistake in my mind as to who the authors of the two variations are. That is, I think the text is inherently ambiguous there. their state became a state of probation, 2 Ne. We invite you to share this with all those you know who might benefit from it. the merciful God of second chances I have since come to know and believe in. idea that a person would live their life on earth and then be permanently Satan will do everything he can to create doubt and to try and destroy all truth. I have been a member of the church my entire life, and it has been my life. Well what did the Father do? 9:27. continue in the path until the end of the day of probation, 2 Ne. Each new day begins with the Sun (Son), providing a fresh beginning from the previous days follies and experiences, and yet, we continue to build upon those previous experiences. But as I have contemplated his question, I have come to know we still need a Savior because it is through His atonement and grace that we can even have multiple probations and be resurrected in the first place. This was part of a long prayer. I know many people think this is false doctrine and I did put myself in their shoes to understand where they were coming fromI could see what they were trying to say, but the fruits werent lining up. I do not hold a For many : And one lifetime is more than enough, if that lifetime lasts for eternity! I simply found that it merited investigation. I've read a couple of interesting books on reincarnation/multiple mortal probations and I actually really like the idea. That is so very sad but I am thankful for that. we are talking about multiple mortal probations that are all human.] The more I hear the more I learn from you and Julie!!! Details mapped state by state. In other words I don't believe this theology, andI'm not recommending beliefs or anything along those lines. and the Sacrament the repetition of the covenant.. every Sunday we do the act of dying and be born again as a small little glimps of that path of multiple probations. I like you, have had a sure witness even as I am writting this that it is true. One should note that reincarnation in Kabbalism isn't reincarnation of a full person but is more akin to Platonic notions. visionary, who can discern spirits, or who possess extraordinary compassion, Having been so moved upon in the process of discovery, my friend Greg and I compiled a book called Multiple Probations which is a compilation of interesting history, supportive scriptures, and informative quotes from early authorities of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This understanding of Multiple Probations, has validated and set my soul free of the ignorance. About this group Our Purpose: As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints we want to prepare ourselves for the day of Christ's return. With this possible equivalency between Micheal and the Holy Ghost in mind and JS' probable belief that all were to serve as Holy Ghosts prior to being Christs, JS likely believed the Nauvoo endowment was a representation of one stage of what each heir of the celestial kingdom was to pass through in their climb up the ladder of exaltation. They in turn did it by proxy for Joseph and Hyrum Smith. Joseph Smith and Multiple Mortal Probations, Apologetics, Law (not licensed), Reading (Re: 2nd Coming of Late), Writing (Published: Deseret News, SL Trib, New Era, Utah Peace Officer), http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/movies/shirley-maclaine-tells-film-set-stories-line-article-1.2545803. Again, I thank you, Greg, Matt and Julie for having the courage to stand and to testify. Lidia, hearing you received your own witness is so validating. Given that the content of JS' revelations usually coincide with questions and subjects he is interested in at the time, my best guess is that this interpretation of 88 is probably a stretch. As it is now, one could easily conclude God respects persons, because some of us clearly get benefits others never had. He claimed, like so many others to have had an out-of-body experience. For example, in 1860, Orson Pratt wrote, "I heard brother Young say that Jesus had a body offlesh and bones, before he came (to earth and) he was born of the Virgin Mary, it was so contrary to every revelation given." JS also gave more info about this path to exaltation, which is that the Holy Ghost, the third member in the Godhead, was going to serve as a Christ. The treasures and hidden treasures of knowledge are real. Thanks for your courage to share. Benjamin Seeker Especially that your own witness didnt come from a human. However, my understanding of this doctrine and how it works creates the opposite reaction. The However we have to then deal with the problem of Joseph being well versed on such matters yet somehow not getting the whole point of these texts. I believe that I am a child of a God, a child of a loving Heavenly Father and Mother with a divine heritage. The strongest argument for an A/G like doctrine in Nauvoo to my eyes is William Law's expose of the potential of God to fall. Something didnt feel complete and this connects so many pieces in my life, in my culture, and even in our Hawaiian legends of gods and goddesses. "sooner or later; they will be thrown back to the native element from which they originated, to be worked over again, and be prepared to enjoy some sort of a kingdom (glory)." We often use this scripture to support the concept of a pre-mortal life, but we would have to assume that it is possible to commit a sin while there in a spirit state. Carston, your witness Of these things strengthens my own. Some have said that it has to do with having more children and posterity. This thesis explains a bunch of odd data points and suggests a straightforward explanation for the origin of Adam-God. Is she the main source? Let's review multiple scriptures that allow us to see things as they really are: 1) The Plan of Happiness. Do you believe sealing ordinances still exist? Why the title and what needs to happen to have that title. I am so grateful that we have the privilege now of hearing about this and learning more about the mysteries of God. I was cautious at first with excitement, but, put it on a shelf. Thanks for sharing Eric! Some say that they dont believe in do overs. and Eve could not know good from evil without partaking of both, which is I don't deny one can read it that way, but the more natural reading is that in his first mortality the Father was Christ. 24This is eternal livesto know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. It's my guess that JS believed that heirs of the Celestial Kingdom would not only serve as Christs, but first they would serve as Holy Ghosts. It taught me that accepting such information and experiences with out, knowing for my self (James 1:5) was and is a danger zone for me to be in. What seems to be missing is the escape clause to such a definitive end. I love Them with all my heart and desire to serve them forever. deep questions about the eternities and the knowledge satisfied our questions My second Temple Marriage was to a man who had spiritual gifts, such as seeing, hearing, and speaking to those beyond the veil. I believe in this doctrine and am excited to continue to receive further light and knowledge. It has been reported by those who knew the first prophet of the church that he was at least at one. I like cats better. Thank you so very much for your great insight and belief in God and the scriptures!! The concept of "Multiple Mortal Probation" would be similar to the teaching of reincarnation, both of which are false doctrines. Yet they lived on the earth at the beginning when it was nearly still a paradise, and they lived to almost 1000 years before dying. Thank you for sharing this. but it is necessary to know in the context of my exaltation. http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/movies/shirley-maclaine-tells-film-set-stories-line-article-1.2545803. over the airways and fiber lines of our media sources. It is a fairly new idea to me but seems entirely plausible. With a larger canon than most religions, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have access to a great many doctrines regarding this topic. Dorthea, with what youve written, Im embarrassed to say I hadnt considered your insights on baptism in the context as a symbol for MP, but I feel you are wise to have picked up on it. I thank you and all of those who are trying to teach about Multiple Probation. Another George Laub journal entry on JS' Sermon In the Grove seems to confirm that this is how Laub understood it. Your recent podcasts and inspired book, Multiple Probations, also shed so much light on this topic and are the sources of which I seek to learn more. Like Lehi who partook of the fruit of the tree of life and who immediately wanted to share it with his family, the fruits of the doctrine have been delicious to me, and I have also wanted to share it. Growing up in the Church, I had the same impressions as you regarding our exaltation. Thank you again for bringing more clarity of the Great Plan to light. consider to be a blessed gift from God. I am not sure how most people have become exposed to this doctrine. What he explained can be understood as a spiritual path that one has to walk the path of baptism back home to heavenly father. I will ponder about it and ask Heavenly Father. I felt all three reading your post tonight. In my opinion Alma 5 and Alma 12, in their entirety, are both worthy of consideration along side many other scriptures that follow a pattern which is familiar to me. Section 76 of the Doctrine and Covenants felt like fringe doctrine to some early members of the church when it was first received. Knowing what the Lord has trusted me true, it should only come through certain lines of authority. God bless you for speaking truth. Which is not what actually happens. Like another point of view on the same thing. In 1786, a guy named John Zephaniah Holwell published a tract called "Dissertation on the Origin of Intelligent Beings, and on Divine Providence".I recommend it to anybody curious about the ideas of a premortal existence, war in heaven, plan of salvation, opposition in all things, infant baptism, free agency, multiple mortal probations, etc. The purpose of this essay is to reason from the scriptures to promote an understanding of how God has worked in the past on these points. Here is the relevant portion: they shall be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. I felt the spirit when I read your essay. But there is some mystery here. Adam I don't want to say any blessing or whatever is wrong but these were the early days of the Restoration and I think some of these people wanted to take any new concept they heard and run with it, e.g., stuff like blessing people that they will get translated to Kolob and whatnot. I have to be honest. Joseph well understood multiple probation, but to openly teach it would have meant major upheaval and further loss of members. This clarification is very helpful. the past has fueled our desire to serve God more diligently, and to fight I shelved it for sometime until I was lead back to studying it a year later. As long as I don't come back as a cockroach or some kind of insect. Having been so moved upon in the process of discovery, my friend Greg and I compiled a book called Multiple Probations which is a compilation of interesting history, supportive scriptures, and informative quotes from early authorities of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There is always hope in Christ. There are stages before and stages after, and one may indeed move in the cyclic spiral, but not in repetition and not in a circle. What problem do you think the innovation was trying to solve? never considered the possibility of living multiple lives, many are judging the
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